


In-depth Meta of “Dealing with Intrusive Thoughts” as it pertains to Incest and the presumed sibling relationship between Remus and Roman

by Demented_Dukey



Category: Sanders Sides (Web Series)
Genre: Blasphemy, Episode Review, Familial Bonds, Gen, Headcanon, Intrusive Thoughts, M/M, Meta, Metaphors, Murder, Open to Interpretation, Religion, Sibling Relationship, Similes, Subtext, religious iconography
Language: English
Status: Completed
Published: 2019-07-20
Updated: 2019-07-20
Packaged: 2020-07-09 06:30:07
Rating: General Audiences
Warnings: No Archive Warnings Apply
Chapters: 1
Words: 2,358
Publisher: archiveofourown.org
Story URL: https://archiveofourown.org/works/19883164
Author URL: https://archiveofourown.org/users/Demented_Dukey/pseuds/Demented_Dukey
Summary: Exactly what it says on the tin.





	In-depth Meta of “Dealing with Intrusive Thoughts” as it pertains to Incest and the presumed sibling relationship between Remus and Roman

_Thanks to@squipfromjapan for [picking out these moments from the episode](https://royal-bros.tumblr.com/post/185949124618/roman-remus-brothers-and-shipping?is_related_post=1). They also notated other moments that could be interperated as “sibling banter”, but for this post I’m going to focus on the dialogue that specifically references brotherhood._

I’m making this post so I have something to link to whenever someone tells me that “They called each other brothers several times!” or “The episode said they were twins!”, because I keep seeing the same assumptions made over and over again being represented as cold hard facts, when there is so much more nuance and room for debate.

##  _So. Let’s look at the episode **“Dealing with Intrusive Thoughts”** , shall we? Buckle your seatbelts, kiddos, ‘cause this is gonna be a wild ride._

**💚**

**_Timestamp: 5:46_ ** **_  
Remus: “Have you ever imagined killing your brother?”_ **

Remus whispers this line in Thomas’s head. He is referencing Thomas’s dream the previous night, where Thomas literally imagined murdering his brother and dragging the dead body into his bathroom. The dream sequence won’t be revealed until later in the episode, but upon rewatch **_this is a clear reference to ~specifically~ That Dream._** This is **_also_** a more subtle reference to the “Moving On” two-ep arc, when Thomas showed a drawing his younger self had made of him electrocuting his brother. We know from the livestreams that Thomas and Joan have been planning Remus since the “Growing Up” episode, and have been dropping hints and easter eggs about Remus’s existence in various episodes. That drawing indicates that these “intrusive thoughts” have been with Character!Thomas for a long time, and this is not the first time this particular thought has crossed his mind.

A few moments later, Remus appears and knocks out Roman. Patton screams, “You killed him!”, **_but it’s a lot less likely that Remus was actually intending to ~murder~_** _ **Roman** \- _Roman is obviously not “dead” because he continues to mutter in his sleep, and **_Remus does not continue to attack Roman to finish the job_**. It’s made clear later in the episode when Remus attacks Logan that his actions are impermanent, and do not do lasting harm to the other sides.

Because Remus attacked Roman directly after uttering this line, many people have taken that to mean the “brother” in question is Roman, thus it implies that Remus was talking about killing Roman. **_But correlation does not equal causation_** \- just because the action happened so soon after the line, doesn’t mean that the line is referring to that action. The action echoing the line makes for a beautiful cinematic parallel, but it’s all a matter of interpretation. People can make that association, but it is their headcanon, NOT actual canon proof.

For example: Immediately before Remus’s appearance, the other sides are taking about whether ghosts are evil, or if they just appear to scare people. At the same time, Remus is appearing (much like a ghost) behind Roman. The conversation directly parallels this for a reason - the viewer is _supposed_ to make that association and wonder _“Is Remus evil? Or does he just scare people because you never know when he’s going to show up?”_ Being a mental projection of Thomas’s mind, Remus is very ghost-like, and he even says the trademark ghost sound, “Boo!”, but in this scene **_there is no more “proof” that Remus is a literal “ghost” of a dead person than there is “proof” that Remus is trying to kill his literal “brother”_**.

## Conclusion: **_“Have you ever imagined killing your brother?”_** is referring to Thomas’s bad dream, not the relationship between Remus and Roman.

**💚**

**_Timestamp: 7:53  
Roman: “Bro, I’m gonna whip your butt!”_ **

Roman calls Remus ‘bro’. Yes, this _can_ imply a sibling relationship, but “bro” is often used for non-sibling relationships as well. Roman says this line as a threat, much like the common phrase, **_“Come at me, bro!”_ **or the less threatening but equally common phrase **_“Cool story, bro.”_** \- which can be used to address _anyone_ of _any gender_ without indicating a sibling relationship. Much like “Dude”, “Bro” carries a inherently “male” association, but it is not used exclusively to address “men” - it can also be used interchangeably to refer to a woman or nonbinary person.

For example: In the beginning of this episode, Thomas is doing an advertisement for Hello Fresh. He holds up a dish of food and says to the viewer, **_“You jealous of this, bro?”_** Thomas is using the term “bro” as a nickname, and addressing his entire audience irregardless of gender. **Thomas is NOT implying a sibling relationship with the audience.**

## Conclusion: **_“Bro”_** is a commonly used generic greeting, not proof of a sibling relationship.

**💚**

**_Timestamp: 14:30_  
Logan: “At a young age you filed away your products of your imagination as either welcome or forbidden. This led to the development of two separate sides of your creativity.”  
Thomas: “So my creativity split in two?”  
Logan: "Into two parts during your development, yes. Like an ovum. The Duke is like Roman’s twin.”**

For this scene, let's go over some basic English Grammar rules. What Logan is saying is an example of a simile, because he uses the word "like". Logan says " ** _Like_** an ovum. The Duke is **_like_** Roman's twin."

A simile is a figure of speech that directly compares two things. Logan has proven in other episodes that he is very literal and very, very careful with his speech, so he is using a simile on purpose. He is not saying that the Duke **_~is~_** Roman's twin, he is saying that the Duke is **_~like~_** Roman's twin, drawing a comparison so that Thomas can better understand Remus’s role in Thomas’s psyche. **_This comparison has nothing to do with how Roman and Remus ~feel~ about each other, it is strictly an example of Remus’s role in Thomas’s brain and the portion of his negative Creativity that Remus embodies, as a comparison to Roman’s role and control of Thomas’s positive Creativity._**

As Logan says this, he hold up two fingers together before splitting them while talking about why Remus exists - this indicates that Roman and Remus were once one whole side. **Much like Thomas’s “whole” personality “split” into the personifications of Creativity, Morality, and Logic, Creativity “split” again to form Roman and Remus. Therefore, Remus and Roman are no more “genetically” related to each other than any of the other sides.**

It’s worth noting, also, that the specific details around the split are still unclear. A majority of the fandom has accepted the headcanon that Creativity, prior to the split, was a Personification of unknown name and personality that was equally split into what we now know as Roman and Remus. But it is possible that Roman himself was the Original Creativity with Complete Control, until the negative attributes were removed from him and created into a separate being, like Eve was created from Adam’s rib.

## Conclusion: **_“The Duke is like Roman's twin"_** is a simile used to explain what Remus’s job is in comparison to Roman’s job. It is not a description of how Roman and Remus feel about each other, and it is not proof that they are siblings.

**💚**

**_Timestamp: 15:01  
Remus: “You made me this way Thomas. I was the unloved brother from the Genesis. Roman and I are Cain and Abel.”_ **

Logan points out later in the video that Remus intentionally uses Religious Iconography to play to Thomas’s sensitivities. It’s possible Remus is being deliberately misleading as a scare-tactic _(he accused Logan of being Deceit when he knew he wasn’t, so he **is** capable of lying)_, but for this meta let’s assume he is being genuine in his comparison.

Remus uses a metaphor (not a simile) to compare himself and Roman to Cain and Abel. While some people use this comparison as “proof” that Remus harbors a desire to kill Roman, **this is not the point he is trying to make.**

Let’s backtrack to the story of Cain and Abel: Cain and Abel are the first two sons born to Adam and Eve. Cain, a farmer, offers God a portion of his crops one day as a sacrifice, only to learn that God is more pleased when Abel, a herdsman, presents God with the fattest portion of his flocks. Enraged, Cain kills his brother. God exiles Cain from his home to wander in the land east of Eden.

 **Why is Remus using this as a metaphor for how Thomas “made” Remus the way he is?** Remus equates Thomas to “God” in the story, because Character!Thomas is the one who “created” his own sides - He is the one responsible for visualizing them as separate beings. Logan points out that Remus and Roman literally wear Black and White because they are _Thomas’s_ sides, and that is how Thomas sees them. Roman and Remus each contribute creative ideas to Thomas (read: “sacrifices” to their “God”), but Thomas is more pleased with Roman’s contributions and shuns/exiles Remus. Remus doesn’t actually say that he wants to kill Roman; however he does heavily imply that it is Thomas’s fault that Remus was created to be inferior, Thomas who chose to favor Roman over Remus, and therefore Thomas’s fault for Remus’s actions and any rage Remus may feel towards Roman.

## Conclusion Part One: Remus uses religious imagery on purpose to play to Thomas’s sensitivities. **He uses the metaphor of Cain and Abel to point out how he has been mistreated by Thomas,** but does not confirm or deny any harsh feelings towards Roman himself.

But while we’re on the topic, let’s look a little more into Religious Canon. Adam was the first human created by God on the planet. God removed a rib from Adam and used it to fashion Eve, to be Adam’s wife. (As I mentioned above, this iconography is a cinematic parallel to Remus’s creation. As Eve used to be a part of Adam, so was Remus a part of Roman before he was removed and reformed into a separate being.) Not only was Eve literally created from a physical part of Adam, she also would then share his genetic code. Even if Adam and Eve didn’t have sibling “feelings” towards each other, an argument can be made that they are still an incest pairing.

Cain, a son of Adam and Eve, marries a woman and produces children to populate the earth. But if Adam and Eve were the only humans on Earth, then Cain’s wife _must_ be a daughter of Adam and Eve, and _therefore_ Cain’s sister. Thus, Cain and his wife are also an incest pairing.

## Conclusion Part Two: **Adam & Eve, as well as Cain & his wife, are both incest relationships.** If a romantic relationship between Roman and Remus is considered incest, it is still no more problematic than the biblical family Remus was comparing himself to.

 **💚**

**_Timestamp: 35:52  
Thomas: “So, you have a brother?”  
Roman: “Yeah.”_**

This is, by far, the most commonly used argument in favor of the headcanon that Roman and Remus are brothers. Most fans hear Roman’s “yeah” as confirmation that he sees Remus as a brother. 

However, there is still room for debate. **_“So, you have a brother?” “…yeaaaaah.”_** Roman is reluctant. He tilts his head back. He stretches the word out. Maybe he’s not quite sure “brother” is the right term for it, but there’s not really anything _else_ he can call him. There’s no easy word for the other half of what used to be a whole fusion. Remus is like a limb that used to be attached, _or a rib that was removed and created into a separate person._ Remus is _**something**_ to him, alright, and Roman feels responsible for Remus in a way that the other sides aren’t because of their shared history. So of _course_ he would default to “brother”, it’s the simplest way to try to grasp a large and complex issue. He then starts comparing **Remus to a mirror -** _“It shows you everything you don’t want to be.”_ **When he looks at Remus, he doesn’t say he sees a sibling or a rival -** _ **he says he sees ~himself~, the dark parts of his own mind he doesn’t want to admit to. The dark parts that used to BE part of his own mind before they were separated.**_

## Conclusion: Roman’s **“Yeah.”** is the closest thing to “proof” of a sibling relationship in the entire episode. But it’s also debatable - Roman seems hesitant/reluctant to confirm that Remus is his brother, and he doesn’t actually use the term himself.

 **💚**

##  _**So, let’s recap. In the Intrusive Thoughts episode, there were the following references to brotherhood:** _

  * One (1) occurrence of Roman calling Remus “bro”, which is a generic form of address.
  * One (1) occurrence of Remus comparing his relationship with Roman to “Cain and Abel”, which is an intentional use of Incestual and Religious Iconography designed to shock and repulse Thomas.
  * Two (2) occurrences of Someone Else (Logan and Thomas) associating Remus with a familial term (twin/brother).
  * One (1) occurrence of Roman (reluctantly?) “confirming” Thomas’s “brother” association, but never using the term himself.



## Roman **never** calls Remus his twin, nor uses the word “brother”, and he compares his feelings towards Remus to “looking in a mirror” and seeing _not a twin_ , _but **himself**_.

## Remus **never** calls Roman his brother, nor his twin, and he never directly comments on his feelings towards Roman.

This will change as new episodes reveal more about Roman and Remus, but as of _“Dealing with Intrusive Thoughts”_ , **all the “proof” in the episode that Roman and Remus are brothers and/or twins is debatable and subject to interpretation.**

  * _If you want to believe that they **ARE** twins/brothers and share a **platonic** relationship, that’s a valid headcanon, but it is not the only one._
  * __If you want to believe that they **ARE** twins/brothers and share a **romantic** relationship, that’s a valid headcanon. [There are many reasons to intentionally ship a fictional incest pairing.](https://demented-dukey.tumblr.com/post/186001029063/reasons-why-masterlist)__
  * _If you want to believe that they are **NOT** twins/brothers and share a **platonic** relationship, that's a valid headcanon._
  * _If you want to believe that they are **NOT** twins/brothers and share a **romantic** relationship, that's a valid headcanon._




End file.
